Monday, September 15, 2008

Naruto Chapter 416: The Legend of the Gutsy Ninja

Summary: Naruto reads Jiraiya's story The Legend of the Gutsy Ninja, reaffirming Jiraiya's wish to address spreading hatred and work towards a future where people understand one another. Meanwhile, Sasuke delivers the Hachibi jinchuuriki to Madara and confirm his plans to go to Konoha. There is a flashback in which Sasuke tells Madara that he intends to destroy all of Konoha to make them understand what he feels with the loss of his brother. (Read 416 here)

serenphoria says:

There's so much to say and expound on this chapter that I decided to keep it relatively brief to save myself the headache.

There have been hints that the driving narrative conflict was going to shift, but this chapter makes it clear: Naruto and Sasuke no longer have divergent goals, but rather the same one (understanding) but achieved through vastly different approaches. Suddenly, the story is much more interesting and Sasuke is a much more formidable foe; the final clash that we've all been anticipating will have much more weight behind it because it's no longer about getting a boy who ran away to come home, but about opposing world-views.


I'm not saying that Sasuke's logic isn't deeply, deeply flawed (Sasuke even admits that he's ruled by emotion - which we've always known), in fact, it's almost as if Kishimoto gives Sasuke that excuse in order to set up the conflict in as dramatic a way as possible: now our hero Naruto has to reconcile a conflict between what had thus far been two self-evident truths: his devotion to his friends and his devotion to his village. Or rather, his devotion to his friends and his devotion to his other friends...it hasn't occurred to him that the two may not be compatible.

Of course, this conflict falls apart depending on whether or not the flashback is reliable and relevant. This is called into question because the flashback is Madara's and not Sasuke's (based on when the black flashback background kicks in), so we can't assume Madara knows Sasuke's true motivation. I'm torn between being skeptical (because it's Madara) and trusting (what author could resist setting up this epic conflict between friends?)

If we don't assume that the flashback is reliable, here are the factors to consider in assessing the reliability of Sasuke's assertions:

1. If I got it wrong, who's flashback is it? Madara's, Sasuke's, or third-party objective?

2. Sasuke's relalationship to Madara. Sasuke said that he's using the Akatsuki, was this an instance of his manipulation?

3. If Sasuke wasn't lying at the time of the flashback, has he changed his mind? We know that Sasuke thought of his team during the Hachibi battle (and since the thought was his alone, there's no reason to believe that was disingenuous) and he has shown that he cares for his new teammates. So he does care about people (or at least, those close to him...but perhaps he doesn't care about people in general?). It may be possible that he spoke of destroying all of Konoha because of his emotional state at the time but doesn't really mean it.

I am so confused about Madara's motives. From what we know, it would seem that he would want Sasuke to do exactly what it is Sasuke said he is going to do. If so, why would Madara continue to question Sasuke? To test his conviction, maybe, but if I were him, I'd let it be and not provoke my puppet into thinking too much. I'm slightly weirded out by the close-up of Madara's Sharingan. There may be some mind-control going on here...or maybe I've become paranoid about truths and untruths around Uchiha.

Darn Uchiha!

On a completely different note, why do all the Kages subject their kin to jinchuurikidom (Naruto, Gaara, Killerbee)? Well, at least in Killerbee's case, he's cared for, unlike poor assassination-target Gaara.

And why is baby!Juugo carrying all the weight? What kind of a team leader are you, Sasuke?!

And Jiraiya, a baseball cap does not a scary ninja make. Unless you're this guy.

6 Comments:

At September 16, 2008 2:05 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, my gut reaction was that Sasuke was full of it during his little speech so I never contemplated on what it would mean if what he was saying is true...

I guess I just can't see Sasuke, no matter how dark a path he travels, condemning an entire village filled with people he knew and once cared about. And, c'mon, most of his hits against Konoha are just echos of Madara's words. You're not trying hard enough Sasuke.

Your theory sounds really cool though and I find myself wanting to see it happen ^_^;

'The whole village are accomplices, trading Itachi's life for the peace that they enjoy.'

It always vexes me when I hear things like that. As if Itachi was some kind of hapless victim. Itachi always struck me as someone who was in complete control of what he did (that's why his final battle threw me in such a loop) and I firmly believe that it was his decision to go through with the massacre.

Sure Danzou would have tried to force him and the Elders would have tried to convince Sarutobi to order him to do it, but as we've seen Itachi doesn't give a rat's ass as to what Danzou wants. And if Sarutobi couldn't kill Orochimaru when it was obvious he went off the deep end there's no way in hell he'd order a boy to murder his own family.

...Bah! Sorry for the rant, but I really needed to get that off my chest.

'The reason Itachi couldn't kill me is because my life was more precious than the village. I feel the same...'

Huh. I never thought of it like that... It does make me wonder though. Itachi gave some of his power to Naruto as a last resort.

Does that mean at the end of it all, Itachi would choose Konoha over Sasuke?

Also, regarding the following in Itachi's footsteps thing. I find it interesting that the one who seems to be doing that is Naruto. Maybe I'm grasping here, but that thought makes me giddy as hell and I really hope that Kishi will expand on this (if it's true, that is).

As for Madara... I think he's genuinely curious about Sasuke. Not that I'm saying he actually cares about him. *shrug* it's hard to say when the majority of Madara's conversations with Sasuke consists of him going "..."

As far as the art of manipulation goes I keep thinking of this quote:

To Manipulate A Man Is A Careful Project.
To Light A Hand, And He Follows His Own Whim;
To Heavy A Hand, And He Will Turn On You.
~ Chronicle of the Metal Age, Thief

I don't know if Madara follows this or not, but I'd like to think so :P

 
At September 16, 2008 5:48 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>Huh. I never thought of it like that... It does make me wonder though. Itachi gave some of his power to Naruto as a last resort.

Does that mean at the end of it all, Itachi would choose Konoha over Sasuke?<<

Ah! But remember Itachi asked Naruto what he would choose before he gave him that power--Sasuke or Konoha--Which would he save? Naruto answered he'd find a way to save both.

 
At September 16, 2008 8:37 PM , Blogger serenphoria said...

@nemisis jedi

>my gut reaction was that Sasuke was full of it<

I'd like to think so too! Taking a closer look at the language Sasuke used, you're right: he might as well be Madara. There was also nothing about his sadness (though it was implied with his reference to Itachi) or pain, but just hatred. He even mentioned the first Hokage, who was never in the equation for Sasuke before, but was for Madara. In other words, it did seem like his speech wasn't quite genuine and he was just saying what Madara wanted to hear.

In that case, it would seem to support the theory that Sasuke's just tricking Madara.

But if I were to be a bit paranoid, I'd suggest that it's possible Madara has Sasuke hypnotized (remember Kishi's focus on Madara's eye) and he's asking Sasuke if he's sure he wants to kill everyone to make sure his spell is working. Classic villain (Who is your master? You are.) And the worst past is Sasuke thinks he's acting on his own volition.

I'm getting way out there now...

But yeah, it does seem a little far fetched that he'd kill everyone indiscriminately. Then again...he's Sasuke.

Personally, I do think that Itachi would choose the village over Sasuke. If Madara's characterization of Itachi is reliable, Itachi acted on behalf of the greater good (which would result in the fewest death?) over his personal attachment (with Sasuke being the exception). But Sasuke at the time was no threat - he was not old enough to even fathom staging a coup against Konoha, and with no one else alive to plant and nurture that idea, Itachi probably thought he never would. Thus, Itachi fulfilled his duty and got to protect the person most precious to him.

If Itachi were alive now, though, and Sasuke for some reason was a threat to Konoha, I think he'd choose Konoha. He'd still like to protect both the village and his brother, but he is unable to figure out how, so that was why it was imperative for him to find someone who may be able to. That's why he posed the question to Naruto and he was pleased with the answer. It would not be enough for Naruto to choose just Sasuke.

 
At September 16, 2008 9:50 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ Nibbles

True. I guess Itachi really has faith in Naruto doesn't he? I suppose Jiraiya isn't the only one who found his 'salvation' in Naruto... It certainly would have nice if he warned the poor guy about what he was up against though ;P

@ Serenphoria

'He even mentioned the first Hokage, who was never in the equation for Sasuke before, but was for Madara.'

Tell me about it. I mean "worships the Senju." The hell? Since when does Konoha even do that? There's no Senju clan that gets any special perks in Konoha and the only reason Tsunade got the position of Hokage in the first place is because Jiraiya refused it. It makes no sense! >_<

I'm not putting anything beyond the Sharingan, but I just thought Kishi was zooming in on Madara's eye for dramatic effect. 'Cause let's face it, there's nothing intimidating about present day Madara's looks except that lone Sharingan eye :P

But everything about Madara's just a big mystery right now. Honestly I'm starting to think he doesn't even want to destroy Konoha because of a grudge anymore...

Yeah, Itachi's the calculating type so in the end he would probably follow his mind instead of his heart, but like you said I do think he really is counting on Naruto to pull through. Aren't we all?

 
At September 17, 2008 10:30 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, srs talk is srs.

But I'm right on board the "Sasuke is full of it" train. (I'm always on board that train, he's just FULL of uber angsty hot air.)

To be slightly serious (yes, I can do it when I try), I would remind you that Sasuke has been full of hatred for the majority of his life. He doesn't know any other way. It's fuelled nearly every single one of his decisions, drove his training, defined his relationships, and shaped his character into the moron that we all wish would be smacked into next week by our loveable Naruto. The point? Sasuke doesn't know how to not hate. He hasn't been without it. I DON'T actually find it out of character for him to take that hatred and turn it onto Konoha. He believes it's his strength, and he wouldn't let go of that so easily. Deep down, he is afraid of being weak. Letting go of hatred and opening himself up to a new concept of family is opening himself up to the possibility of being weakened, both emotionally and a subsequent "decrease" in power. In the end, Sasuke would be likely to choose power over the village. He is paralleled to Orochimaru in this regard. He believes that hatred is his power, and while he seems to be figuring out that there's a place for a team within that paradigm, he still isn't willing to let go of what's driven him for so long. He doesn't know how to be without it. If he were a person, I'd suggest that he also FEARS being without it. It's all he knows. Not only that, he's always been self-righteous about it. He always has a cause. He's a crusader! An avenger! Justice is always on his side! I haven't seen a character this puritanical outside of *the Crucible*. (Look where it got THEM.) And Madara could manipulate that. It's how you get extremists in the real world. Madara would have to do very little to turn that fuel to his purpose. He might not even have to lie, just bend the truth. It's remarkably easy to manipulate people when you give them a cause and tell them what they want to hear. As for Sasuke, when have you seen him successfully emotionally manipulate anybody? In fact, when has that EVER been a part of his strategy? He's always been a puppet- I don't think that as of now, he has the character to manipulate. Or at least, to out manipulate a master manipulator. Of course, Kishimoto has been pulling new magic powers for Sasuke out of thin air, it wouldn't surprise me to find a "Manipulation" Sharingan, or some other BS to cover this latest shortcoming of Sasuke's.

Itachi also was single-minded in his goals (whatever they were- I still don't know why Sasuke was so quick to trust him, common sense would have him reserve judgement). He also had no imagination whatever. Eliminate the threat didn't HAVE to result in the wholesale slaughter of his clan. He never saw a choice, but there's ALWAYS a choice. And the entire clan bought the farm. You can't tell me that Sasuke was the ONLY innocent in the family. If he was, then the Uchiha never had the numbers for a long-term successful coup de etat.

Of course, Kishimoto COULD have somehow managed to turn Sasuke into a master manipulator, and he's ACTUALLY going to head on over to Konoha and say: "You know, Naruto, I was a major dick before. Let's let bygones be bygones, and let me introduce you to the smoothie, as a health-conscious alternative to that ramen crap you keep eating. Seriously, how DO you eat that stuff day in and day out? You're gonna die of high cholesterol before you ever make Hokage. Trust me on this. Come on bro, and try a strawberry banana!" And Juugo would get fixed up by Tsunade, Sai would ruthlessly mock Karin, who would have a broken nose courtesy of Sakura, Kakashi would throw bells at everyone and tie them all to logs, Naruto would be come Hokage in a storm of rainbows, candy, leprechauns, and pwetty, pwetty unicorns.

Yeah, right. But at least I'm properly interested again. And a shout-out to the Baseball Cap of EVIL, which doesn't stop cracking me up. Oh, and long post is long, and srs post is srs. Sorry. *sheepish smile*

 
At September 20, 2008 12:04 PM , Blogger serenphoria said...

@Taterbird

No need to apologize, I like it when you're serious. You're much more astute in your analysis than I am! I tend to get caught up in the moment.

I liked your point about Sasuke not knowing how not to hate. I always thought that Sasuke would die with his brother, because without his goal to kill Itachi (come'on, did anyone really believe he intended to 'revive' his clan?) he had nothing. In that light, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that he would turn his attention to the next extreme goal (that was more or less spoon-fed to him, even if he thinks he came up with it himself) because it easy fits into his patterns: get stronger to beat strong people. Like you said, he doesn't know how to or want to think about what's next because it's scary stepping out of his comfort zone and into the unknown. The thing is, he doesn't know that he's taken the easy way out.

Anyway...thanks for simplifying things. It'll make it easier for me to enjoy if I'm not thinking there's multiple layers of deception.

 

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